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Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:58 pm
by VickiAmerica
I'm writing up procedures for the jural society right now, using all your suggestions, recommendations, and knowledge, Greg. I will run it past you before I submit it any members.

I like the idea of stipulating that members should agree to jurisdiction . . . . then we would have more members than we need.

If you like the rough draft of the principles/procedures, would you be interested in being a judge? I'm not only having difficulty finding sovereigns and patriots here, but also quality Christians that truly understand God's Word. You would be perfect.

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:33 pm
by VickiAmerica
If we're going to do this, would it be best to create a "Los Angeles Grand Jury" rather than a "Jural Society" (petit jury)??????

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:19 pm
by editor

I just read your last two comments, after replying to your private email. Since you've put this out there, I don't think you'll mind if I post my thoughts here.


It looks like you've put a lot of time and thought into this-- which makes me very happy. It's the reason I posted all the Christ county documents on The Lawful Path, and have hosted them for so many years-- to give others the chance to pick up the ball and run.

I'm currently on a business road trip, without much time to devote to these matters. If there are sections on which you specifically want my opinion, it would be helpful if you send the document to me in either Open Document Format, or PDF, and highlight the specific language.

I also suggest bringing this to the forum, where you'll have input from the likes of Thomas, Scott, and Notmartha (and others, I don't mean to leave anyone out). If the project develops enough to warrant it, I can provide an online space for document sharing and collaboration.

I have done very little study on grand juries. I presume you know that grand juries are charged with determining whether sufficient evidence exists to bring a person to trial. In jurisdictions which use them, grand juries are sworn in by a judge, and usually sit for six months at a time, convening as little as once a month, or as much as a couple times a week.

From your prior correspondence, I think one of your main issues is finding the power to bring bad government actors to justice. That is a laudable goal, and I wish you success.

As always, jurisdiction is the key. It seems doubtful to me that a remote grand jury, outside the venue of a State court, and without that State court's jurisdiction, could compel prosecution of a government actor within that State court. Although it seems more reasonable that a well-written charging document containing verified evidence, and signed (in affidavit form) by twelve or more citizens, might put enough pressure on a local prosecutor to bring the matter before a locally seated grand jury.

With enough study you might find a way to convene a grand jury WITH jurisdiction, and without the prior knowledge/participation of the local judge and prosecutor. That would be interesting indeed, and something I'd love to post on The Lawful Path. According to Wikipedia, only half the States currently use grand juries, but that does not mean that a properly convened grand jury might not still have legitimate powers, even within a State which has otherwise abandoned their use.

A grand jury convened by a separate jurisdiction such as a jural society, might indict a foreign government actor, giving the JS's court the appearance of legitimacy. However, the JS's court would still be without the power of subpoena or warrant for compulsory appearance. A conviction under those circumstances would have little or no teeth without comity, which is at the discretion of the foreign court. You may have read from time to time, as I have, of instances in which a foreign nation has convicted various people outside their jurisdictions of war crimes (Bush Jr., and Obama are both examples of this). Just as with winning a big-money civil suit against a pauper, winning is one thing, collecting is another.

As I've written before in other instances, I think the most important focus of our efforts must be in making all of our documents and processes simpler-- to distil our ideas into the most relevant; stay on-point, and present evidence which can be digested by the masses' limited attention span.

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:20 pm
by VickiAmerica
One final question before we launch the Los Angeles Jural Society. It is a question asked of me by several participants who are either in some official capacity or jurors. In that I have told them that we cannot charge Claimants and Demandants to hear their cases, I'm now rethinking that. It often takes a VERY long time to read through long Briefs, check out and verify evidence, and more. Are all members of a jural society to work for free???

While I personally think it would be unseemly to charge even a pittance for them to receive justice, no one is going to earn a living working at this . . . and even if they are only available part-time, it still takes time away from other events they could be enjoying, or other part-time work they could be doing.

Would it be against God's law to request some type of 'filing fee' that could be split between those working on the injustices? Please advice from scripture . . . .

Thank you.

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:28 pm
by VickiAmerica
I have no problem at all with you posting our discussions, Greg. I'm wondering if you would mind if I post some of your pages in my various patriot and sovereign groups on Facebook and elsewhere. I keep forgetting to ask you. You are a wealth of great information, and truly a man who knows scripture.

The Los Angeles Jural Society will NOT be a Grand Jury, rather a Petit Jury, and we have invited other Sovereigns from other states to take certain offices and serve as jurors. Mostly, this is because the pickens are slim in Los Angeles for Sovereign, as well as God's anointed. We will "meet" by email or conference calls if there are not enough locals to get the job done. Would you be interested in any of the positions? I would suggest "Chairman", or at least one of the Judges.

I have revamped the first documents I sent you to make them much shorter and easier to read. I figure we can always amend them once things get going. I didn't want to overwhelm those that are new to jural societies, common law courts, and even scripture. I'll send you the new 'watered-down' version of your very rich texts.

Also, I just inquired on another post here, if it would be unseemly to charge at least a token 'fee' to litigants. I hadn't thought of the hours of time it will take officers and jurors to read over what are often very jumbled, almost non-nonsensical Briefs that some will surely lodge. I've seen those lodged in other jural societies, and it ain't pretty. I don't want to lose jurors and others because of taking up so much of their time. What do you think?

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:33 am
by editor
For the labourer is worthy of his wages. 1 Timothy 5:18.

You may have noticed the Courts Christian for the People of Christ county, kingdom of God, had a cost schedule for filing complaints. All costs were paid in silver coin.

You have my permission to repost from the Lawful Path, provided you credit The Lawful Path as the source, post a link to where it appears on our site, and repost the quote un-edited.

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:58 am
by VickiAmerica
I can't upload the 'final draft' of the Los Angeles Jural Society procedures here. Or at least I can't figure it out. I'll email it to you.

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:00 am
by VickiAmerica
We will not be requiring 'dues' from the members, but we're interested in what to charge litigants. We really don't want to, but it does take a LOT of time. I can't find the area you referenced for that.

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:46 am
by notmartha
4.4 Costs. The cost of actions brought under these rules shall include the following:

A.Standard Costs. Standard costs shall be set by the Judicial Council, and the costs in effect at the time a dispute is submitted to the Court shall remain in effect until the dispute is resolved. All standard costs shall be listed on the Dispute-Resolution Application and shall include the following:

1.Filing Costs. There is a non-returnable filing cost to be paid at the time of filing.
2.Administrative Costs. Administrative costs are payable upon application for the requested action, and shall include the following:

a.Invitation. There is a cost to the claimant that requests the Clerk to invite someone not joined as a party to join in a submission to mediation or arbitration.
b.Service of Process. There is a cost payable by a party that requires the Clerk to attempt to perfect service of process.
c.Copies. There is a cost payable for all Certified copies of Court documents.

B.Other Costs. Other costs shall be determined by the court clerk as costs arise, and shall be paid as stated in the settlement or award. Said costs may include, but are not limited to the following:

1. Required travel or incidental costs of a mediator or arbitrator and Court representatives;
2. Evidence, investigations, or expert counsel produced at the direct request of a mediator or arbitrator;
3. Party-appointed witness(es), mediator(s), or arbitrator(s);
4. Postponement.

C.Review. There shall be a separate filing cost for the confirmation, modification, vacation, or correction of an award.

D.Payment. Costs are expressed, and should be paid, in silver coin of the United States of America, pursuant to the Mint and Coinage Act of A.D. 1792 and as amended in A.D. 1837, and issued before Anno Domini, nineteen hundred and thirty-three. Exceptions shall be subject to the prior approval of any member of the Tribunal. In the event of hardship on the part of a party, any member of the Tribunal may authorize a deferment, reduction, or cancellation of the administrative or other costs subject to oversight or review by the Tribunal. Under no circumstance shall the Court accept Federal Reserve Notes or other negotiable instruments as discharge of said costs; debts shall not be discharged, but shall be paid.

E.Suspension for Nonpayment. If any cost has not been paid in full, then the Clerk shall inform the parties and the mediator or arbitrator. If such payments are not made, the mediator or arbitrator may order a suspension or termination of the proceedings.

F.Return of Costs. Once the parties agree to mediation or arbitration, no cost to the parties shall be returned, except if the Court is unable to appoint a mediator or arbitrator, or for any other reason must terminate its ministry.
If you page down to the application, you'll see the fee schedule:

• All costs Paid to this Court shall be paid to the Clerk, and are denominated in pre-1933 silver coin of the united States of America. Federal Reserve Notes will not be accepted. Costs are non-returnable, and are established as follows:

Filing: 5.00
Service of Process by Registered Mail: 2.00
Service of Process by Hand-delivery: 4.00
Postponement (single/multiple arb.): 4.00 / 6.00
Additional Hearings (1/2 to ea. party): 4.00
Invitation of Path’: 1.00

Re: Christian Jural Societies: A Thing of the Past?

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:05 pm
by editor
I was on the Judicial Council at the time we set those costs. I remember some of the discussion; we hashed it out for days.

On the one hand, lawful resolution should be accessible to everyone. On the other hand, people should learn to resolve their own disputes when possible, and only access the Court as a last resort.

The general consensus was the cost should be just uncomfortable enough that people would not waste the Court's time, and the Court Officers could be fairly compensated for time spent.

The requirement for silver coin, rather than Federal Reserve notes, was non-negotiable. The primary reason was jurisdiction-- how could we claim a separate jurisdiction while accepting the benefit of private bank notes? Not possible. Side benefits include a reduction of frivolous lawsuits (the plaintiff has to go out and get silver coin). Also, over time, a silver coin usually buys the same number of loaves of bread, bushels of corn, wrenches, fuel, etc., unlike Federal Reserve Notes which steadily lose their buying power (inflation).